Curse

ghostlyranger · Nov 24, 2005, 04:14 AM // 04:14

i think Anet dun hate solo farming, but they hate if some solo farmer can farm very fast with cheap method.

thing to do to encourage teamplay is increase drop rate for team farming, and not nerf solo farming. then both side can be happy

Willy Rockwell · Nov 24, 2005, 04:18 AM // 04:18

I've had some of the most fun farming and exploring. I go out with my bear and (carefully) find new ground and new towns. Its different than being led there by the green arrow on a quest or in a mission. Walking into a newly discovered town is one of the best parts of the game.

aron searle · Nov 24, 2005, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willy Rockwell

I've had some of the most fun farming and exploring. I go out with my bear and (carefully) find new ground and new towns. Its different than being led there by the green arrow on a quest or in a mission. Walking into a newly discovered town is one of the best parts of the game.

Yea, there are alot of areas i went randomly farming and wandering and general "ohhh look at that" into that groups would never go to, as there isnt any towns there.

Guardian of the Light · Nov 26, 2005, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

The 55 monk was innovative, not cheap. Heck, when you get down to it, the echo nuker was innovative. But guess what? The build got out into the open. Suddenly, everyone and his grandmother who had a monk was doing the solo monk. A few exceptions, yes, just as not all eles were echo nukers. Now, people call it a "newb build" because it is common. If a solo mesmer build came up tomorrow, one that could solo any area in the game, people would call it innovative. Two months from now it would be a newb build.

Underworld is a great place to farm ectoplasms. Now, go check the price of ectoplasms. Things in demand go up in price until the supply meets the demand. It is near-impossible to meet the demand for ectoplasms, and a similar situation would come about with runes.

The real problem is that so many people are calling for a nerf. Be it to underworld farming or just to solo farming in general. This is the completely wrong approach. We all play guild wars. We play it differently, and that is not a problem (people can have fun how they choose). As others have pointed out, and I have repeated many times, the problem lies in the wealth:time ratio that the two groups of players have to deal with.

*rolls eyes* do you really know how supply and demand works?

Any noob who wants a echoplasm isn't consided demand. The ones that actaully have the money for echoplasms are consided demand but not the ones who don't. This means if demand goes up prices go up, if demand goes down prices go down, if supply goes up prices down, and if supply goes down prices go up.

Now if BOTH supply and demand are affected in the same way (down and up) and at a equal value then prices will STAY THE SAME. THIS is exactly the situation that farming has created.

Banebow · Nov 27, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Any noob who wants a echoplasm isn't consided demand.

It is ectoplasm, not echoplasm. And we have atleast 250,000 "noobs" who want an ectoplasms, who are willing to farm for an ectoplasm, selling all items to the merchant. Get one, and "hey, that wasn't to bad", so they want another one. And so on. That does not include the people who are actually buying them for something like armor, since the "demand" they create is much higher.

The point I was trying to make was, having good rune farming locations will likely not do much, since superior absorption is the only rune that has been stabilized because of the price cap, not because of supply vs demand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Now if BOTH supply and demand are affected in the same way (down and up) and at a equal value then prices will STAY THE SAME. THIS is exactly the situation that farming has created.

Wrong. Farming creates some of both, yes. However, demand for something like ectoplasms, from griffon farmers, means what? Demand for ectoplasms goes up. Supply stays the same. UW farmers supply ectoplasms. But they also demand ectoplasms. Therefore, ectoplasms prices go up. Ever since black dye was at 26k, a price cap has been enforced on the traders. Since it was added, ectoplasms went from 20k+ to below 17k. Since then, I have never seen ectoplasms above 17k. If you mean to tell me that, during the past few weeks when ectoplasms were at that 17k price cap, they would never have gone above it. . .then please tell me were that logic is comming from. Since griffon farming took a hit with the Nov. 10th and 11th updates, demand has dropped from the griffon farmer, since it was harder to make the needed gold. Hence, ectoplasm prices have been reduced again (less demand from lack of gold). Yet they still fluctuate. Perhaps to you increases and decreases of a few platinum are nothing, but that is something to be looked at to me.

Loviatar · Nov 27, 2005, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sayshina

I don't actualy think she intended to create the great PvP vs. PvE mess we had a few months ago, but it was her job to deal with it, and preferably work it out. She certainly did NOT do that.
.

and she didnt INTEND to create it?

please tell us how she created this mess since as you yourself said

Quote:

either intentionaly or accidentaly kept their CSR's in the dark as to their real intentions. CSR's are not really staff, in most companies nobody even asks them for their opinion.

so someone kept in the dark is supposed to smooth everything out while having no idea of what the company will do next.

that is a piece of twisted logic even for a born complainer

Markaedw · Nov 27, 2005, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Typical CSR, we're mushrooms. Kept in the dark and only fed billsh!t

twicky_kid · Nov 27, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markaedw

Typical CSR, we're mushrooms. Kept in the dark and only fed billsh!t

unless you are a CSR yourself i wouldn't put any words in someone else's mouth. CSRs are the direct link between the CEO and its customers. CSRs create the feedback from customers to let the CEO and sales marketers figure out what to invest their time into. i feel sorry for gaile since there is only 1 PR for GW. at least the company i work for has a few thousand. still doesn't help much having 15 million customers

i have the power to pull the plug on you and tell you no if given certian situations. i can take that customer's complaint and turn it into feedback. this is wrong and the customer feels this way. adjust plans to conform to customer needs. if plan doesn't conform i lose customers for that monthly charge.

this is the typical feedback system for most "smart" companies. Anet on the other hand has a goal set with a way to reach it. players have created speed bumps for direction of the game. instead of people doing missions and playing with each other most turn to soloing or henches. yes most pugs are worse than henches but have you ever thought why? maybe its b/c they never play in a pug and communication is difficult for 8 people through a simple chat line. i've noticed most people in pugs play as though they are with henches. ele, necro, and mes arrgoing 2 groups instead of letting the war take arrgo then follow in behind him. most people don't know how to play in a pug together b/c frankly that is an option in the current game.

besides they don't have to conform to you what you want all the time. you bought the game they have your money it cost them money to let you play it for free. sure you can choose not to buy the next chapter but that's not a problem either. i think GW has enough people that play the game for the meta game than anything else. the only reason they even attempt to stem pve inflation is b/c of new players coming into the game. i'm a new player, bought the game, log in, look at econemy and say f it after a few days. i'll have to grind for months in the game's current environment to get anything you really need (runes, skills, armor).

most of the point of veiws come from players that are established in the game. think if you have a new account with nothing unlocked, no gold, armor, weapons, or runes. would you play this game and grind for months when the box says skill>time played? when the game released that statement was true. now on the other hand its the exact opposite. drops were fine till the soloers then they had to reduce the drop rate.

Guardian of the Light · Nov 27, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

It is ectoplasm, not echoplasm. And we have atleast 250,000 "noobs" who want an ectoplasms, who are willing to farm for an ectoplasm, selling all items to the merchant. Get one, and "hey, that wasn't to bad", so they want another one. And so on. That does not include the people who are actually buying them for something like armor, since the "demand" they create is much higher.

The point I was trying to make was, having good rune farming locations will likely not do much, since superior absorption is the only rune that has been stabilized because of the price cap, not because of supply vs demand.

Wrong. Farming creates some of both, yes. However, demand for something like ectoplasms, from griffon farmers, means what? Demand for ectoplasms goes up. Supply stays the same. UW farmers supply ectoplasms. But they also demand ectoplasms. Therefore, ectoplasms prices go up. Ever since black dye was at 26k, a price cap has been enforced on the traders. Since it was added, ectoplasms went from 20k+ to below 17k. Since then, I have never seen ectoplasms above 17k. If you mean to tell me that, during the past few weeks when ectoplasms were at that 17k price cap, they would never have gone above it. . .then please tell me were that logic is comming from. Since griffon farming took a hit with the Nov. 10th and 11th updates, demand has dropped from the griffon farmer, since it was harder to make the needed gold. Hence, ectoplasm prices have been reduced again (less demand from lack of gold). Yet they still fluctuate. Perhaps to you increases and decreases of a few platinum are nothing, but that is something to be looked at to me.

you still missed my point

Ecto prices went up AFTER the update because there was LESS ecto famers and some farmers who still had some money left.

If some griffon farmer farms and farms trying to get as many ectos as he can he still is limited in demand. He can only buy ectos once he has enough for one. This is slowed once ecto prices go up.

I should also say that as prices increase demand decrease because now getting ectos just from gold is slower once you need more gold to get it. So traders can ajust their prices so that supply meets demand. Supply can also be rate because it is how many ectos farmers are getting.

If you increase supply then the trader can decrease his prices because he will have enough of the item to meet the increased demand from the decrease in pricing.

Now I took this in school I know what I am talking about

twicky_kid · Nov 27, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

yEcto prices went up AFTER the update because there was LESS ecto famers and some farmers who still had some money left.

you might want to check on that. ecto is at 14k right now. don't remember it being that low pre AI update.

the gold sinks are doing their jobs well. more gold is being removed from the game while the gold pumped into the market is slowing down. everyone has less gold and cannot afford those high prices. the prices will come down to meet what people can afford.

its only 2 weeks since update and prices are dropping across the board. dyes are the exception. seems the white dye craze has been making silver more expensive. yellow moved slightly. black went up and has stayed there but that's not a surprise.

EDIT: just check dye prices they are down as well. prices are dropping more and more each week.

Pandora's box · Nov 27, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

this is the typical feedback system for most "smart" companies. Anet on the other hand has a goal set with a way to reach it. players have created speed bumps for direction of the game. instead of people doing missions and playing with each other most turn to soloing or henches.
.........................(skip)
besides they don't have to conform to you what you want all the time.

You are right. they don't have to. But is that smart? When a commercial company notices there's a huge demand for their product but people use it a little bit differend than it was meant to be, what would be the next step to take? Teach people patiently, yet without compromise, that they should stop using their product this way? Or make some adjustments and win a lot of customers? Not such a difficult choice I would say! $$$

$$

Unless of course they allready are working on a new product for these customers

Markaedw · Nov 27, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

unless you are a CSR yourself i wouldn't put any words in someone else's mouth.

Why do you think I said WE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

besides they don't have to conform to you what you want all the time. you bought the game they have your money it cost them money to let you play it for free. sure you can choose not to buy the next chapter but that's not a problem either.

Hmmm.....actually that was what we were doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

most of the point of views come from players that are established in the game.

We wanted to change our focus, so we had to get rid of our long time customers. We made a few incremental changes, found a new base that did not know any better, then WHAM!!!! slammed the hammer on the old timers.

Interesting concept for a game.

Loviatar · Nov 27, 2005, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

you might want to check on that. ecto is at 14k right now. don't remember it being that low pre AI update.

.

it was 15k yesterday and is still 14.xk at the moment.

superior vigor is 60k now down from 70k+ a bit ago

got a nice sup fire for only 6k now

Monica Angelina · Nov 30, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Wow, I haven't visited this thread for some time and there sure are a lot of smart people visiting a (egad) gaming forum! Some are smarter than others, of course. The one referred to me as twisted, not very smart! :P

A few ideas I would like to address:

THERE IS NO IMBALANCE OF LOOT BETWEEN SOLO and TEAM FARMING.

The amount of drop is exactly the same. This should *NEVER* be changed. To change this would create imbalance and encourage one form of play style over another which in turn becomes a statement from Anet as to which they favor.

Since there are people that are really smart here, why do they persist that there is an imbalance and insist that the imbalance be address with a solution in reality is creating actual imbalance? Perception... It is as powerful as reality when you do not understand randomness of probability and statistics. You resort it to some mystical nebulous experience that simply offer opinions and resort to name calling. The division of labor (and its benefit and efficiency) isn't considered when contemplating the Solo vs. Team farming. Why, to do so is to take away from one's very own arguement! So a little bit of intellectual dishonesty aside, in the perfect world, 2,4,6,8 players should be able to kill same amount of mobs more effectively. Alas, the world isn't perfect and not everybody's skill level is at the same level. Hence those who prefer to team (and most of the time with less than optimal group) end up being less effective. The problem ins't with GW or the loot drop rate. The problem is with the people. This is precisely why communism and socialism fail since it regards everyone as being the same and remove any incentive to "move ahead", or, "solo-farm".

(Okay, I'm stretching a little, sue me, ha, you cant if you're a true believer!)

The HAVES will have more than the HAVENOTS simply because the HAVES are willing to do the work/grind/solofarming/teamfarming/insert your favorite activity here to have what they set out to do. To some of you, why not be happy about your flist and guildlist full of friends online that you can play with while others toil alone, by themselves, mindlessly almost pulling the one arm bandit? Just because you like standing around stroking your ego rather than watch a slot machine hit jackpot does not mean you should have the ability to take it away from others why, that wouldn't be very capitalistic now, would it?

Orbberius · Nov 30, 2005, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monica Angelina

THERE IS NO IMBALANCE OF LOOT BETWEEN SOLO and TEAM FARMING.

The amount of drop is exactly the same.

So you're saying that a person who spends the same amount solo-farming and team-farming will get an equal amount of loot from each? That's ridiculous.

There IS an imbalance that causes people to solofarm: a player can get MUCH more loot solo-farming in the same amount of time than he could have team-farming. This causes an imbalance between people who solo-farm (a tedious affair that most people would do only because they feel they HAVE to to keep up with everyone else) and people who play the game in groups, like the way the game was meant to be played.

ANet, fix the imbalance please.

hidden_agenda · Nov 30, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orbberius

This causes an imbalance between people who solo-farm (a tedious affair that most people would do only because they feel they HAVE to to keep up with everyone else

ahmm... actually i don't think that's true at all.

i solo-farm once in a while in order to try out something new. for example, my elementalist recently just got to Droknar's. i haven't upgraded her armor in a while and had (accidentally) sold all the bolts of cloths. (Don't ask...

)

so i quickly solo-farmed and managed to get 200+ bolts of cloth in ~40 minutes. then i bought my droknar.

to be honest, i fail to see how i've done something wrong...

personally, i am pro-farming. this is a game. people pay for it to be entertained. people play it for fun. to the largest degree possible, people should be able to play it the way they want.

Orbberius · Nov 30, 2005, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

to the largest degree possible, people should be able to play it the way they want.

Oh sure, but the current system has a large disincentive to play in groups (you get a hell of a lot less loot - around 1/8th to be exact) in this competitive/cooperative, online, multiplayer game. If solo-farming and team-farming were on more equal ground, then there would be no problem. If you got the same number of drops whether you were in a team of 8 or whether you were solo, a lot of people wouldn't feel the need to solo.

Then hopefully ANet can also work on making the game harder/more challenging for groups.

Goonter · Nov 30, 2005, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Then let there be a vote!

Solution to end the incentive to solo farm.
Select all that you agree with.

A) Give larger teams more drops than solo or smaller teams so they can farm collectively quicker than soloist can.

B) Give soloist or smaller teams less drops than larger groups so they can not farm anymore effectivly than a full team can.

C) A balanced combonation of A and B, however thats supposed to work out before someone finds yet another predictable solution to cash in.

D) Increase the rewards of challening endgame quest to match the efforts of farming so people are happly rewarded for the challenges that were designed for them to meet by the developers.

E) Make mobs random in most cases, varied in builds and always increasingly reactionary, thereby destroying their predictablity and causing full balanced teams to be more effective at clearing them than smaller teams or soloist.

If you cant tell by my tone I vote D and E

Banebow · Nov 30, 2005, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monica Angelina

To change this would create imbalance and encourage one form of play style over another which in turn becomes a statement from Anet as to which they favor.

Care to explain how solo farming is not encouraged now? It is, after all, 8 times better loot-wise than groups ever currently can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monica Angelina

The problem ins't with GW or the loot drop rate. The problem is with the people.

The best 8 players in the game cannot kill mobs 8 times as fast as soloer. Therefore, they can never get the same amount of loot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monica Angelina

work/grind/solofarming/teamfarming/insert your favorite activity here

Favorite activity: Glint Quests. Reward? More experience! Oh yay!

Favorite activity has absolutely zero bearing on the gold you get. No, those who want money are ment to solo farm. . .but didn't you say that no imbalance exists?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monica Angelina

Perception... It is as powerful as reality when you do not understand randomness of probability and statistics. You resort it to some mystical nebulous experience that simply offer opinions and resort to name calling. The division of labor (and its benefit and efficiency) isn't considered when contemplating the Solo vs. Team farming. Why, to do so is to take away from one's very own arguement!

The world is about opinions and perception. If I perceive someone as ugly, and you see them as beautiful, who is right? You? Why you and not me? Perception is reality, for those who do the perceiving. You can only change the way you see things, and to claim that an understanding of probability and statistics will make you view reality. . .is a perception. "reality is in the eye of the beholder" as the saying goes.

Which, to those of you who are fairly astute, will show just why this topic is highlty interisting, but can never amount to any "proof" about why things need to be changed, or why they do not.

twicky_kid · Nov 30, 2005, 03:29 AM // 03:29

the amount of drops in the game have not changed that is a correct statement. the problem is that the quality of those drops have become next to nothing with the diminishing returns method.

quality of drops across the entire game have been reduced. the more you visit one area the less quality drops you will get. meaning the more you play the less you get. you don't even have to kill anything to get the drop nerf. i have went in and out of a town really fast for a long period of time and i got the warning message.

its pretty simple to calculate. 8 man team will have all drops divided by 8. a soloer will have all drops divided by 1. now that the quality of drops has gone down the soloer is going to make more gold by the selling the crap drops to the merchant. then he can take that gold and trade for anything he really needs.

i like the new change personally because of what its doing to the econemy. prices have been falling more and more. everything is going down. death runes are going up (waiting on those curse to skyrocket).

so far i haven't seen any increases since the changes. it went up then started to nose dive.